The Best Cable?

[Rhodes83]

hi, guys! I am new here, ice to meet you! I know that i am a little off-topic, but i couldn't find any discussions about my lil problem: i want to learn how to play guitar, but i don't know what kind of guitar i should buy to practice. and 1 more thing - my friend says that you should learn how to play difficult stuff first. Is that true?

[Brian Ingram]

I need a new good quality guitar cable of 15 feet. What are the best brands to use now?
It's been a long time since I have needed one and I understand that they DO make a big difference.
Hopefully under a $100....

... Awhile back I bought a few Klotz La Grange cables after getting sick of my George L's cutting in and out. My friend had a George L's cable at hand so we used that for awhile. Then we changed back to my Klotz - there was a clear difference. The L's cable was more attenuated and tamed a bit of highs - kind of like a presence knob. ...

I tend to go with any mic or guitar cable made with Mogami for the minimum rating of capacitance and resistance that affects the tone and attenuation depending on the cable length....the shorter the less effect it has. ...

Disclaimer first: I have never tried a cable from Klotz. The reason for me was price. I have used George L's and have made my own cables using raw Mogami cable. I have used Monster Rock and Jazz cables, because I received them free. Sorry in advance for the long post.

My best advice to John A: use whatever cable works for you and keeps you from being concerned about your cable's performance. Try not to spend a lot of money. Beware of snake oil.

The key factor is a loss of highs due to cable capacitance and series resistance. These two factors ultimately form a low-pass filter that can roll off the highs in your sound. Generally, the capacitance is specified in picofarads per foot (pF/ft) or picofarads per meter (pF/m). Of course, you need to divide pF/m by 3.28 to compare pF/m to pF/ft.

I looked around for actual specs, rather than anecdotal evaluations.
George L's capacitance
Mogami specs
Klotz specs

Summary:
George L's: 20.9 pF/ft
Mogami: 39.7 pF/ft or 47.3 pF/ft (depends on specific model)
Klotz: 20.5 pF/ft (from 20' spec)
Monster Rock: 41.4 pF/ft (from Klotz' information)
Monster Jazz: 63.3 pF/ft (from Klotz' information)

The George L's numbers were hard to find; on the linked page, the capacitance was measured by a magazine review as 418pF for a 20' cable, so my number is derived from that info.

All this should tell you that, if cable capacitance is the deciding factor, George L's and Klotz are in a virtual dead-heat. It should also tell you that the length of your cable is as important as any other factor. In my opinion, you will find an audible difference in a 15' cable, but that the same difference will never be audible onstage. If, however, you had a 100' cable and/or extra cable runs to/from a pedal board or other outboard devices, all that distance will add up to a noticeable difference.

15' Comparison (based on above numbers):
George L's: 313.5 pF
Mogami: 595.5 pF (W2524 cable) or 709.5 pF (W2319 cable)
Klotz: 307.5 pF
Monster Rock: 621 pF
Monster Jazz: 949.5 pF

All these are very much smaller than the value of the tone control cap in your guitar; if it's not full up, you will not have any difference in sound due to cable capacitance, at least for the short 15' length you need.

Also know that almost all guitar amps will have some sort of series input resistance; you'd have to work very hard to find one that doesn't. The resistance is often essential in tube guitar amps, and can be used for mixing multiple input jacks, setting volume differences between a #1 and #2 jack, and as grid stopper resistors for the input tube. The grid stopper use helps set a treble roll-off, generally well above the audio range, which reduces RF interference and keeps your amp from picking up AM and CB radio signals. The tubes themselves also have input capacitance that has the same effect as cable capacitance.

Tube input capacitance is on the order of 1/2 to 1/3 the capacitance of the George L and Klotz cables (say, ~120pF typical for a 12AX7). Most guitar amps have a series resistance of 34k or 68k ohms (some may have more, generally only custom-built stuff will have less). If we use the 15' Klotz cable, the total capacitance is 427.5pF. With a typical 12AX7 input and a typical 68k series resistance, the treble response is down 3dB at:

Frequency -3dB = 1/[2*pi*R*C] = 1/[2*pi*68,000*427.5pF] = 5474 Hz.

That's well above the range of guitar fundamentals, but will be in the range of some harmonics. For what it's worth, most guitar amp speakers will have significant attenuation at/above the 5-6kHz range. The same equation with the Monster Jazz cable says treble is -3dB at 2188 Hz. Definitely audible (but probably on purpose, hence the name "Jazz" applied to the model name).

Here's a catch: some input jack schemes take the typical 68k resistance and have a second in parallel for a #1 input, halving the resistance and doubling the treble roll-off point to nearly 11kHz (using Klotz/George L's as an example). You would need very atypical guitar amp speakers for the speaker to even reproduce that strongly. But you can still hear a difference, even if slight.

Something no one is advocating: if super-low cable capacitance is worth $$$$$, how much is less series resistance worth?

Maybe it's because I'm an amp builder, but rather than buy a new cable (for $25-100 or more), I know I could spend $0.50 on a new resistor, maybe 10k or less. Reducing series resistance will extend high frequency response just as effectively as reducing cable capacitance. The equation for the -3dB point places the same value on low resistance as it does for low capacitance. Granted, I don't have to pay a repair person's minimum labor fee, so the cost to me is simply the cost of a resistor.

The series resistance does provide a needed function in guitar amps, so we can't just say "eliminate it". I also argue that cable companies claims of super-low resistance (maybe less than a couple ohms for the entire cable) are meaningless in the face of tens-of-thousands of ohms of needed series resistance for proper amp operation.

Therefore, I'd argue these selling points are only of marketing value; notice also that Klotz' information called out every other manufacturer's cable except George L's, because they're not vastly superior by direct comparison. For similar reasons, there are rarely any specs available when you're trying to select a cable.

Oh yeah... gold plating is very probably meaningless in a guitar cable, and is just another selling point to convince you the cable is better (we can debate this point later ).

So, summing up with what I said up top:
Buy the cable that makes you feel happy about your sound. Short cables don't have as much noticeable effect as very long cables. Try not to spend a lot of money. Don't fall for snake oil.

[alexjones]

Quite an impressive post Brian! It's always cool to add science to this quest for tone. Off topic - but how is the "Standel" amp coming along?
Alex

[Brian Ingram]

Thanks, Alex!

I have a buddy doing the cabinet woodworking, and I'm gathering up the parts for the electronic chassis assembly. Just got a bunch of parts out of storage when I visited my folks over the holidays.

Anyway, progress is somewhat slow due to job, family and holiday demands.

[emjaybee94]

For the past 30 years I've used a speedlock cable. No soldered ends; just a cable that mechanically screws to the jack plug. When it fails (and it does eventually) I unscrew the jack, snip off half an inch of cable and screw it back on. Of course my cables are probably a foot or more shorter than they were 30 years ago, but at least I have an easy remedy if one fails on a gig.

Regards
Mike

ps: I don't think you can buy them any more.

[Brian Ingram]

In essence, that's how the George L's cables work.

They have "solderless" ends. You push the cable in through a hole in the plug, and a short spike inside makes the contact with the center conductor. A screw on the side of the plug is turned a specific number of times to just cut through the outer insulation and make contact with the shield braid.

With enough flexing, that braid connection could become intermittent, so you do the same thing as what you described; snip a couple inches off the end and reattach the plug.

[Mike Nye]

If you want 'THE BEST' cable, get Gotham Cable and Switchcraft 1/4" mono plugs and solder them yourself . . .

Gotham Cable is what's used in the finest recording studios for mic, instrument, (DI) and patch bay cables, and isn't outrageously priced either.

[Brian Ingram]

I'm sure the interest in this thread is probably dead, but I did want to mention Mike's right.

I looked up Gotham cable specs, and they're better than any of the previous cables by a factor of two. The nF/km rating was a little clumsy for comparison, though...

So it looks like Gotham cable will be your best bet, and reasonably priced.