6122-1959 Tone Caps

[alexjones]

Hey Everyone,
I just had a thought - I am not sure if it has been talked about on the board before. Has anyone experimented with different types of tone caps for their Gretsch CG or NC? I haven't messed with the harness before, what kind of cap is in there? Is it just a generic or an "audiophile" quality cap. Just thought I would see if anyone has any interesting suggestions.
Alex

[Norm]

From my archive of Paul's remarks.

"...When Chet and I talked about the old Gretsch guitars he always said he didn't like those switches as they had them but he could never get Gretsch to do them right.
He never cared for the tone switch on Gretsch guitars. He said they made for too much bass. (Gretsch fans call the tone switch the “Mud switch” for the same reason). I changed the capacitors on one of my Gretsch guitars. I was fooling around with that and I've found what I think is the best capacitor to use; a .0022 it rolls off the highs just enough. It's a little trouble to change it out but in case anyone tries it that would be the one. A Mylar cap works best..."
Paul Yandell_cgp

During the sixties Chet experimented with the switching harness on his '59 and for a while had the selector switch on the cutaway and independent tone switches for each pickup. Later on he had the tone switch taken out altogether. I think this is because a lot of top guitarists prefer the pickups to be unadulterated coming from the guitar and prefer to adjust their tone at the amp level.

I figured that's what Chet had done after looking at the "Best Of Chet Atkins' album cover for months. I actually got my first Gretsch tone setup so the tone switches were independent. It was a chore that took a couple of days to work out but I got it to work.

That guitar got stolen and my next Gretsch guitars I tried taking out the tone switch and putting in an out-of-phase switch in its place. That was interesting but I just didn't use it that much. On my current '61 Gentleman I just disconnected the tone switch altogether because the capacitance seemed so muffling. to me.

Probably one of Jimmie Websters ideas that he talked Ray Butts into designing.

[Brian Ingram]

Up front, I have no specific knowledge of what type of cap is used in any new Gretsch.

Based on my experience having worked at a major guitar manufacturer, I'd bet money the cap itself is nothing special. Most likely, it would be some sort of generic metallized polyester cap, because that would be small and easy to mount on a control or switch.

I can also tell you that monkeying a harness inside of any semi-hollow guitar is a difficult experience. It will be made a LOT easier if you tie a length of fishing line to the shaft of each pot/switch. You then unscrew the nut holding that part on the guitar, and lower the whole thing down into the guitar. The harness needs to be fished out through an f-hole.

Depending on the model and manufacturing technique, the pickups may need to be removed from their mounting rings. It all depends on how the wiring from the pickups is/is not attached to the pot housing, and how much slack is left in the wiring.

Sorry for the tangent. Ultimately, I'm saying that on any production guitar, no one will be spending money on a pricey cap. It would be seen as unnecessary, and eat into the profit margin.

[Norm]

Well, I have no opinion on the cap quality either except to say if I were to pull a harness and replace it I wouldn't mind spending a little money and get quality.

With the Gretsch sealed top guitars you don't have F-holes...you do everything by fishing it out through the pickup holes and, yeah, it's definitely a PIA Project but it is doable. You just need to be patient putting everything back in.

I've rewired two tennies and did my single cut get a couple of times including a total new wiring harness from scratch and all I ever used was scotch tape, strong thread (or a guitar string) a hemostatic clamp and/or narrow needle nose pliers to get everything back where it needed to go.

At the factory they use a threaded "come-along' to draw the switches to the holes. Some of the guys at gretscpages reccomend rubber tubing available at hobby shops that slip over the ends of the switches and pot posts to help feed them back in. I always thought that was a good idea but I never tried it.

Think out what yoiu need doing, take care you put the screws you take out in a safe place and take your time. If you find yourself getting impatient or frustrated, take a break.

[LMark]

what kind of cap is in there?

Alex, I know that your question goes to "kind." I can't answer that, and would be as curious as you are. I do know, however, that the value is indeed .022, as the schematic reads 223k for the 6122-1959. Back to the "kind" of cap. I bet that it's not Russian Military PIO. Mark

[alexjones]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the responses. I know dealing with the wiring harness on these guitars is a pain - so I am not super excited about changing stuff just for fun. If it was easier to get at - it would be fun to swap some NOS caps and see what happens. Just thought I would ask if anyone has tried anything with an interesting result.
Alex

[Brian Ingram]

Norm's quote of Paul is where it's at.

You could spend any amount of money to get a particular type/brand of cap. However, the real key is experimenting with the value to find something that's workable without being "mud only" (unless of course, you need a mud option for your music).

With the Gretsch sealed top guitars you don't have F-holes...you do everything by fishing it out through the pickup holes and, yeah, it's definitely a PIA Project but it is doable.

Doh! I guess it shows that the manufacturer I worked at has a lot of models starting with "ES". And I forgot they also have models where you have to work through the pickup rout.

[Pvee]

After reading this post, it spurred me on to fixing my old 6120 blue gretsch. I owned it for 3-4 years and was never satisfied with the tone control. barely turning the tone control killed the highs and the tone especially noticable on the neck pickup. So tonight I changed the cap to a known .022 ufd and it is a nice improvement.

The one I took out was marked .022 but it was either bad or mis labled. I tested the tone control with both caps before actually soldering in the new one. Glad I finally got around to it. Maybe I will play it more now. It is a very nice guitar

[Brian Ingram]

Notice though that Norm's quote actually talks about a cap 1/10th smaller, at 0.0022uF. You might also see these as 2200pF.

[Mike Nye]

I replaced the MUD SWITCH on my '61 Country Club with a 500K pot, using the same cap . . . WHATTA DIFFERENCE ! ! !